Talk:Jukebox Software

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Revision as of 16:54, 17 March 2006 by Spacefractal (talk | contribs) (→‎Types of "-ware")
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A template should be created for this page, or at least a standardized format for laying out the features of each software.

For example:

  • One description lays out resolution, others don't
  • One lays out orientation, others don't.
  • One lays out skinning, others don't.
  • One lays out OS it runs on, others don't.
  • One doesn't say if it's freeware, while others do.

The reason I say this is because this is the exact same thing as going to each web page and fumbling through them to figure stuff out.

Also, just as with the emulators, this needs to be fleshed out more fully, such as the listing in the juke forum. An example is the emulators listings. Motch laid out a fistful of them so we could go back in and know what might be out there and flesh out those (or delete them if obsolete) later, rather than piecemeal them in one by one.

Lastly, while I know these may be freeware and you guys may want to point out the presence of a donation link, in the software description does not seem to be the place to do so (to me anyway). Mention it in the overview/summary at the top. Mentioning it up there, and then including a link within the description of each looks far cleaner. Donations aren't a "feature" of the software, although I CLEARLY understand they're greatly appreciated.


Drewkaree 09:01, 14 March 2006 (EST)

Template/Standardization points

Here is a small list of things I've noticed in looking through this small collection listed so far. More points obviously can/would be needed but here's a start on what I'm talking about.

  • OS this runs on
  • Freeware, shareware, or commercial (along with cost)
  • Touchscreen compatible
  • Media format(s) supported (mp3, Ogg, Ape, FLAC, etc)
  • Skinnable (and are they preset, or end-user can create?)
  • Additional requirements? (.NET Framework, specific version of WMP, any runtimes or .dll's, etc)
  • Supported resolutions (or at least a range)
  • Album-oriented, singles-oriented, or both
  • Monitor orientations supported
  •  ?

Obviously I don't think I've covered everything, but setting this up and being consistent will clearly make this easier for folks to sift through the info based on their needs and may introduce them to something they never even thought of that they might like to have.

Maybe a feature grid would help on the Jukebox/Emulation software pages? The header column could link to pages and have each jukebox/emulator their own page.
Jukebox OS Type Touchscreen Supported media
SoftwareX Windows XP Shareware Yes MP3, OGG
SoftwareY Win98, Win2000, WinXP Freeware No MP3
Felsir 09:40, 14 March 2006 (EST)

The Standardization Point....

Im look on that, when I have time later on this week. I'm should start one place, and I was thinking about this (but diddent have the time).

Here is a sample table (using my own software), do Im missing something? (it would been greatly if a smaller font can been used)

SOFTWARE OS Type Skinnable Additional Style Monitor Media Resoulutions Controllers Speciel
Arcade Music Box 2 Windows Freeware
Donation 		Yes None Singles
Albums 		Horizontal
Vertical 		1) BASS
2) Videos
2) Netradio 		320x240, 640x480
ArcadeVGA
Dual Screen 		Touchscreen
Keys/Joys
Trackball 		Name that song
CDG integrated
HTPC interface

1) BASS sound system support: MP3, OGG, WAV, FLAC, MOD, XM and lots more
2) require Microsoft Media Player

--Spacefractal 17:45, 14 March 2006 (EST)


The grid is an AWESOME idea! I was thinking the same thing about the emulators pages, but I figured start small with something like this page and see what ideas were brought forth.

Perhaps to save space, have the features be listed as numbers and have a list of what the numbers correspond to below it? I've noticed looking at the second table, it extends beyond the screen. I'm certain there's a way to limit the width of the table, but how to fit everything in it then?

Thanks for the idea Felsir!

Drewkaree 18:32, 14 March 2006 (EST)

maybe switch Horizontal and Vertical (but this form is a MUCH harder to swich. Maybe we could table like this, and use a standaized destripction to the software itself?

Meybe you are right, using numbers instead, but would it not to have to many numbers? The width is a high problem with the large font. Using a small verdana font would help a lots.

--Spacefractal 18:38, 14 March 2006 (EST)


Perhaps it's a solution that has too many items needed to implement it properly.

Something else I'm wondering is perhaps a bullet-point list standardized so info just has to be plugged in as an = X feature thing.

Ex:

  • OS = DOS, 98
  • Cost = Commercial software ($35)
  • Resolution = 800x600 for best results

and so forth. Maybe a small template to include the bullets, features list, and = sign could all be standardized and adding a new software could call up a "fill in the blanks" type of template.

I don't even know if that type of template is possible, so I could be talking out of my ass :)

Drewkaree 18:58, 14 March 2006 (EST)

Maybe this form:

Arcade Music Box 2

Picture of Arcade Music Box
  • OS: Windows 98 and above.
  • Cost: Freeware with donations link.
  • Destription: This jukebox software was designed for using in MAME cabinets running MAMEWah (Interface is very the
  • Style: Interface look like a htpc application (Access Albums, Singles, Videos and Karaoke from a menu).
  • Resolution: Best under 320x240 or 640x480 by default (skinable).
  • Monitor: Support Horizontal, Vertical (both software and hardware) and Dual Montitor.

same).

  • Controller: Toucescreen, Keybard, Joysticks (include 49way) and Trackball support.
  • Special: Have a nice "Name That Song" game. Few buttons is required.
  • Homepage: http://www.arcademusicbox.com


This form is easy to edit and have a lots better destriptions (and the screenshots say very much, whay they does). What do you mean? Much better to the large table and get a lots more information about a jukebox software.

--Spacefractal 01:25, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Grid suggestions

How about this:

SOFTWARE OS Type Skinnable Monitor Media Resolutions Cab friendly Special
Arcade Music Box 2 OS windows icon.gif Freeware
Donation 		Yes Monitor horizontal icon.gifMonitor vertical icon.gif BASS1
Videos2
Netradio2 		320x240,
640x480
ArcadeVGA
Dual Screen 		Yes Name that song
CDG integrated
HTPC interface
Doscab, Wincab OS DOS icon.gifOS windows icon.gif Freeware
Donation 		Yes Monitor horizontal icon.gifMonitor vertical icon.gif MP3, OGG Any3 Yes Supports coin inserts

1) BASS sound system support: MP3, OGG, WAV, FLAC, MOD, XM and lots more
2) require Microsoft Media Player.
3) resolutions only limited by used videocard.

I limited the columns to items that I though would be the first selection criteria, a grid makes comparing the software so much easier. Some space eating items are replaced by icons. I do support the template for the form, but I suggest to give each software it's own page. This has two reasons: 1) it reduces the jukebox page size a lot making it more readable. 2) it allows to make detailed pages for each piece of software with specs and perhaps hint and tips. So the form template is a good thing, so each Jukebox page has at least the same items filled in, my suggestion is to make the jukebox (and emulators) page an general overview for quick comparison and easy access to the individual software pages. Felsir 03:38, 15 March 2006 (EST)

(Spacefractal's version)

SOFTWARE OS Type Skinnable Monitor Media Best Resolution Controllers Screenshot
Arcade Music Box 2 OS windows icon.gif Freeware
Donation 		Yes3 Monitor horizontal icon.gifMonitor vertical icon.gif BASS1
Videos2
Netradio2 		320x240 to
640x480
Dual Screen 		Arcade Controls
Keypad Controls 		thumb left
Doscab, Wincab OS DOS icon.gifOS windows icon.gif Freeware
Donation 		Yes3 Monitor horizontal icon.gifMonitor vertical icon.gif MP3, OGG 640x480
and above 		Arcade Controls
Touchscreen 		thumb left

1) BASS sound system support: MP3, OGG, WAV, FLAC, MOD, XM and lots more
2) require Microsoft Media Player.
3) resolutions only limited by used videocard.

Maybe the changed table on the main page, and a link to a each own page to a better destription (made by the author, or found from the homepage?

All software are allready cabfriedly, so this could instead go for the controller instea (using icons?). And the speciels could been a screenshots? Features is allready destription on the own wikipage allready.

Nb. Sorry for the many edit (did not showed a preview).


--Spacefractal 09:00, 15 March 2006 (EST) 

Please do not edit someone else's message. This disrupts communication and makes it hard for 
someone to react on something that is said before. In this case, copy the table so others 
can see what the texts refers to. Note that this is not criticism on your contribution to the
 topic (which is welcomed)!

"Skinnable" covers a lot of ground, from simply changing a color or background image to being able to change the size and location (or even existence) of elements. Do we waant to break this out further by skinnability features (change font, change element size/location, change element look, change background, etc.) or perhaps just designate skinnability as "partial" (change only some things like background), "basic" (change the complete look but not change element sizes or locations), and "full" (change everything inclusing sizes and locations)?

--Chris 09:21, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Maybe we can make the skinnable column to "No", "Yes-", "Yes+","Yes++" and add in the notes that "no" means no options,"Yes-" means limited to font and colours, "Yes+" means replaceable images and "Yes++" means replacement of images and interface elements? Also if all jukeboxes are cab friendly, the column can be removed. What info does controller options add? If they can be controlled by cabinet that means keypresses? Mouse, trackball, touchscreen aren't those also the same things? I mean: mouse and trackball are the same and as far as I know is a touchscreen driver similar to a mouseclick on a specific location - similar to a drawingtablet being the same as mouse input? So that column doesn't really add anything? Felsir 09:44, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Sorry I changed the table. I got deleted it, wich I should not. Bear over with me.

SOFTWARE OS Type Skinnable4 Monitor Media Best Resolution Controllers Screenshot
Arcade Music Box 2 OS windows icon.gif Freeware
Donation 		Yes
Full3 		Monitor horizontal icon.gifMonitor vertical icon.gif
Monitor dualscreen icon.gif 		BASS1
Videos2
Netradio2 		320x240
640x480 		Arcade Ctrl
Touchscreen 		thumb left
Doscab, Wincab OS DOS icon.gifOS windows icon.gif Freeware
Donation 		Yes
Full3 		Monitor horizontal icon.gifMonitor vertical icon.gif MP3, OGG 640x480
and above 		Arcade Ctrl
Keypad Ctrl 		thumb left

1) BASS sound system support: MP3, OGG, WAV, FLAC, MOD, XM and lots more
2) require Microsoft Media Player (normally version 7+).
3) resolutions can also been changed by the skin, and is only limit by used videocard.

4) How can the software been skinned?
Partial: change only some things like background.
Basic: change the complete look but not change element sizes or locations
Full: change everything including sizes and locations (but not resoulution)

Mouse, trackball, touchscreen is NOT the same. It depend you can see the mousepointer or not, or how the trackball was used (traclball can been used as a analog joystick, like Arcade Music Box does). This is why users can se it controlled by a "Touchscreen", "Arcade Controller" or by "Keypad controller". Mouse CAN been coved by both Arcade controller and touchscreen.

--Spacefractal 10:05, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Thus far

Sorry, I don't know how to "quote" someone, so I italicized in bold the items I'm replying to. Don't wanna confuse others' comments with mine.


I limited the columns to items that I though would be the first selection criteria, a grid makes comparing the software so much easier. Some space eating items are replaced by icons. I do support the template for the form, but I suggest to give each software it's own page. This has two reasons: 1) it reduces the jukebox page size a lot making it more readable. 2) it allows to make detailed pages for each piece of software with specs and perhaps hint and tips. So the form template is a good thing, so each Jukebox page has at least the same items filled in, my suggestion is to make the jukebox (and emulators) page an general overview for quick comparison and easy access to the individual software pages.


I like this theory to allow basic sorting, then link from the grid to further description. I think the thumbnails are better placed on the individual page, since they take a lot of room on the grid and may not offer any help since the size by its very nature would have to be even SMALLER than a normal thumbnail to keep the grid small. A good example is SpaceFractal's thumbnail. It loses all sorts of context at such a compressed size - even though they can be enlarged, putting it on the description pages allow a better view of it when you're examining the software further (such as below - good size for the thumbnail on the description page as well, kudos!)

I also like SpaceFractal's suggestion as a format idea for the description page as well, although list the general items on the side of the thumbnail, and move the description to the bottom to fill out the page, like so:


Example of individual description page

--- Arcade Music Box 2 ---

Picture of Arcade Music Box
  • OS: Windows 98 and above.
  • Cost: Freeware with donations link.
  • Style: Interface look like a htpc application (Access Albums, Singles, Videos and Karaoke from a menu).
  • Resolution: Best under 320x240 or 640x480 by default
  • Skinnable: (this is just for example of partial) Partial. Selectable font and text color.
  • Monitor: Support Horizontal, Vertical (both software and hardware) and Dual Montitor.

same).

  • Controller: Toucescreen, Keybard, Joysticks (include 49way) and Trackball support.
  • Special: Have a nice "Name That Song" game. Few buttons is required.
  • Homepage: http://www.arcademusicbox.com
  • Destription: This jukebox software was designed for use in cabinets running MAMEWah ...... blah blah blabety blabety blah more filler here if needed or taken directly from the homepage and blabety blah



"Skinnable" covers a lot of ground.....Do we waant to break this out further by skinnability features (change font, change element size/location, change element look, change background, etc.) or perhaps just designate skinnability as "partial" (change only some things like background), "basic" (change the complete look but not change element sizes or locations), and "full" (change everything inclusing sizes and locations)?

This is what I was thinking earlier but did a terrible job of explaining this, thanks Chris! I like the idea of partial, basic, and full, with further enhancement of the description of what those terms mean specific to the software being done on the individually linked software page - see above for what I'm thinking of


Lastly, as SpaceFractal pointed out, controls are NOT the same. I don't recall where, but in comparison of two different programs, one was able to utilize the arcade controls of whatever type as input items, while the other required a keyboard for something and wasn't written to allow doing away with the keyboard even if you wanted to do so.


I better like the table than that example I made, because it use a lots fewer space, and have a good information, and you can have about 8-10 jukebos software without using a lots of scroll (the picture I made with 320pixels is too big).

Maybe we could wipeout the screenshots (or use speciel instead?). Instead put screenshots alone on it own table instead under the table (above or under table), like 4x2?

This mean: Good overview on it mainpage with all listed software, and a deeper destription thier the own page.

--Spacefractal 12:27, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Individual Page idea

SF, take a look at the Virtual Music Jukebox page (there's a link there right now as a placeholder for the table). That's the one I'm most familiar with (or at least have spent the most time fiddling around with) so that's why I fleshed out that page.

Using the table would give the basics to help someone narrow down their choices, and then setting up the page like your inspiration would allow them to get more in-depth on the individual program page.

Ignore the lack of the table - I'm terrible with tables and don't want to screw it up by moving it and adding to it - since it's just a placeholder for the table.

Drewkaree 13:35, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Oops! I also forgot that I laid out on every other page a concept for what goes where to keep everything consistent - that way you can also see my ideas and a "basics" for each bullet point, allowing the "Additional details" to be the large fleshed out description of each program

Drewkaree 13:37, 15 March 2006 (EST)

I added the table. I included the 'controls' column since it seems like that is one of the base criteria to select the software. The footnotes include a description of what should be in the skinnable column. The table is filled with placeholder values at the moment but now the code is there it should be fairly straightforware to edit the values. Felsir 14:32, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Feelings?

Felsir, thanks for moving and setting up that table.

I went through the list, and it feels nice to me. Adding/removing some columns seem like a necessity, but as far as navigation, seems like an excellent implementation.

DrewKaree 14:46, 15 March 2006 (EST)

No problem, we're all aiming for the same goal here (which is why I like this wiki project so much). You're doing a great job on the individual pages! I thought once the table is in place it is more obvious how it would work and what columns are needed or could be left out. I added the same discussion on the Talk:Arcade Emulators page (with console emulation etc. to follow suit but I think those will be very similar to the arcade emulator table). Felsir 14:41, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Looks like in the "media" column, we could save some room by just assuming every player will handle mp3 format, perhaps add that to the footnotes, like "unless noted, all players handle the mp3 format" and simply add the numbers for the other formats.

I know you just generalized the table so it's not showing at present - I like that dual monitor icon! Sweet idea!

I think dropping the "special" column will also save space, as it should be laid out in "Additional details" anyway. IMO it's a better place for it, since you don't have to worry about brevity and can better address something. A person may not be able to comprehend the "shorthand" needed due to space constraints in the table.

Leave "type" as is, denoting freeware, shareware, and commercial.

Maybe add format unless it looks cumbersome - simply "Album" or "Singles". Video and karaoke should again (IMO) go into additional details.

Is there any feature that seems to be missed on the individual programs pages or something that might be better separated out of "Additional Details"?

DrewKaree 14:46, 15 March 2006 (EST)


Look Great, both mainpage and the in depth page. Maybe "media" should changes to Orientation(s), and speciels to coins (do it accept coins, not all support that)? The rest could go in the indepth details.

--Spacefractal 16:35, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Orientation is denoted by the icons under the "monitor" column. Not all accept coins, but I think in the interest of space, removing a column like the special column is a better idea rather than trying to find another use for a column. Use the larger and more spacious individual program page for enhanced descriptions

DrewKaree 16:56, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Orientations, I mean style (albums, singles, mediaplayer, http). I have cleaned the table in the mainpage a bit. Since that is many jukebox software now, It may been have a border in each cell (but that border look awfull, because it diddent use any css stylesheets)? I have removed specielt, but by now leaved media as it is (some may even support movies, but people can see if some movie extensions have been added).

--Spacefractal 17:21, 15 March 2006 (EST)

Skin definitions

I'm not certain, but it almost sounds like Space Fractal's AMB2 might be considered a fully skinnable item. SF, correct me if I'm wrong, but can you move your elements around and whatnot like MameWah and also eliminate some items?

I'm wondering if the 4 definitions seem good. I think so, and further clarification seems to have solidified it in my mind, just wondering about you guys.

Lastly, I just added what I have personally tested out myself, so a lot of the programs in the list in the forums aren't on here, but I won't get to them anytime soon to test and verify anything.

DrewKaree 19:02, 16 March 2006 (EST)

The skin definitions could been better? Maybe, yes.

  • removed some text to prevent some misforstood info*

AMB2 act and fell very much Mamewah. AMB support any resoulutions (but was suited low resoulutions), so when a software suppport that, fullskinning is required to doing that? It very like the great wincab(doscab.

Otherwice....

I have in the past opgraded Freebox from partical to advanced. Wincab/Doscab is full skining. VirtualMusicJukebox is advanced (screenshots look like advanced, but some elemelt can been resize slitly).

We should test all jukebox software in the current list first, and then add all other to the list (hince I started with the first 6 one, when I started this talk).

--Spacefractal 15:28, 16 March 2006 (EST)

Maybe we should drop one and only use these?

Basic: change background, font colors only.
Advanced: change all/most artwork, elements, but not locations and resoulutions are fixed.
Full: change all artwork, elements, and to any resoulutions.

I hope this one should been more clear?

Just noticed my amb2 section:
DrewKaree, Thanks to correct my spelling :-), but I dosne't changed back from advanced to full skining, before this is explained out.

You can see on the 2 screenshots anyway, how it can been costumed (it very great to promote 2 screenshots of each software, so a user can see, how much it can been skinned (I noticed that in wincab/doscab, great screenshots).

--Spacefractal 16:21, 16 March 2006 (EST)

Okay, I think this is going in the right direction :-) I will bail out here - I am not familiar with any of the jukebox software mentioned. I'll keep the page on my 'watchlist' and I enjoy the discussing about it. I will also be without inet connection the next week (see this forum message) so I will see where things went, when I'm back... Felsir 05:09, 17 March 2006 (EST)

Types of "-ware"

Something I noticed that I don't think needs definition on the main grid page, but needs to be defined nonetheless - types of "-ware".

There's freeware, shareware, and commercial software. As far as I see it, that's the only 3 kinds there could be (I lump postcard-ware and stuff like that in with freeware). Here's my definition - see if you agree or add your comments about why you see it differently so we can standardize that.

I'll a few different programs as an example.

  • AMB2 is freeware. SpaceFractal makes it free for use, although donations are accepted. Now, the software DOES work without donations, so I think that makes it freeware by its very definition.
  • Party Time Jukebox. There is a nag screen that does not hamper full functionality of the software, but you do have to view it. If you give them money for the software, they give you a code to register the software, which also removes the nag screen. I view this as freeware as well, because there is no money required to make the software work FULLY - to me, FULLY is the key word - and the nag screen goes away.
  • Jukebox Simulator. This software works and allows you to test out the software, but prior to payment, software is limited to 30 minute time limit, 12 Album limit, 5 Track limit, and vend mode is disabled. There is no time limit as to how long you can use the software like this. The time limit to me is the key word here.
  • Virtual Music Jukebox. This software works fully for 15 days. At the end of 15 days, it stops being functional unless you pay for it. I view this as commercial software, because without payment, it won't work as expected beyond 15 days.

To summarize my view:

  1. Freeware is fully functional without payment, and I don't consider a nag screen or ads to equate to a loss of functionality.
  2. Shareware has limited functionality until payment is made.
  3. Commercial software is fully functional for a limited time

DrewKaree 16:13, 17 March 2006 (EST)

I Agree, and have changed the page to what you said.

--Spacefractal 16:54, 17 March 2006 (EST)

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